well you obviously havent invested any time in the DAO because you would know that most things are open source and that you can contribute to anything you want.
secondly you obviously have never had a look into the dev support, because you would see how many daily requests you get daily from tens of devs.
Please if you want to have an opinion that matters, get involved first and afterwards you can judge.
You are judging 3 devs for asking 15k / month but on the other side you dont know what they are doing, i mean its written in the proposal with links.
Sorry that my writting is not on par of your standards..
So far, I like the educated discussion I had with every one in this post. It is interesting to see points of view different than mine.
One thing I can asure you is that this is not a rant, I am genuine trying to help the way I can
I am mainly a reader of threads in this forum so you’re right that I don’t time in other areas of the DAO.
I had at best a few glances at the community websites (mainly because of the proposalsl so in this case I stand corrected that indeed it is open source so glad to see that!
You’re again right I have rarely seen dev support. At the same time by the proposal thread I can tell you it doesn’t take that budget to cover tech support.
In your proposal you correctly are focusing on documentstion and FAQs which again in my opinion doesnt justify the cost you’re asking for.
I think everyone is entitled to judge it’s whether it’s good judgement or not. You might say it’s bad judgement because I don’t know the domain well (which wouldn’t be unfair to say) but in the domain I am familiar with (development, project management, …) I can give decent judgement.
After you pointed out that you are open source I took a very quick look (I am on my phone so hard to check) and I’ll stick to my original point.
The backend part of the code, which is what I am most familiar with, is something you could do in a week (being very generous if you didn’t have requirements laid out and you haven’t done FastAPI before).
You have quite simple backend stack (which is reasonable as there isn’t anything too tricky) so there isn’t much technical complexity. You have written exactly one test in the whole codebase which is a sign of a not too mature project but then again it’s not needed too much given the amount of business logic in the project.
Overalls there aren’t too many comments to make which is my point precisely: there isn’t anything technically challenging being done at the moment. Maybe you’d elaborate which part of the backend is worth part of the budget you asked for?
Again, I might sound harsh but put yourself on the other side. Suppose you are the tech lead and you’re hiring for this project. What budget would you have allocated for this?
What backend are you referring to? I would strongly encourage you to read the proposal carefully again. You are probably referring to the catalytics backend, Catalytics is the community project we started with, it’s not the devrel work. We will maintain this project because it’s been used by thousands of community members.
Since you are a technical person, I guess you will also understand that a backend alone isn’t covering a compete project. There are 3 backends, 1 frontend application, a gitlab pipeline, a server where everything is hosted, rpc connections and scaling solutions attached to this project.
It’s not about writing code that runs locally on one computer but it’s about writing code that can be deployed and used by thousands of users.
And still we are talking about Catalytics here and Catalytics is small minority of the devrel tasks.
Let’s touch on dev support, I would strongly encourage you to have a look and see for what kind of support we are talking there.
We are not fixing broken licenses or printers that doesn’t work. For being able to support there you need to have a deep understanding of programming, the Jupiter products and understand how these work. Have you ever taken a look on how swap instructions work? You are free to have a look at our GitHub repository that is linked in the proposal. These are not junior developer tasks that everyone can solve. And if there is someone around here who can, please feel free to join discord and start contributing.
Let’s touch on the next point. Do you know that there is a comprehensive api documentation that needs to be maintained by people who understand the products?
TLDR; we not coming from an inner circle and have not been chosen silently in the background by a specific group of people. In August we were every day community members and since then we have provided community projects and help to the community that everyone else could have done but surprise surprise no1 else did.
That you ask this question this way proves me that you haven understood the proposal yet. It’s not about a project. There are several repos, 2 projects, dev support, governance data analysis (check the flipside pinned in our proposal not only the charts but the code behind that, you can also search through flipside and see if you find governance data as we provide), community reach, social content for developers and showcasing technical community projects.
Trust me when I say that but I believe 15k per month for 3 devs doing that is extremely underrated.
I challenge other community developers to start doing what we do with the same quality for less
Every time I read your response I find more and more points that I don’t agree. The DAO and the voting mechanism exists for over a year, do you think it’s a coincidence that no1 else has build what we build? You are extremely underestimating the work that is behind Catalytics. We are analyzing the whole governance history and creating a voting profile for every single user that has ever voted since inception. Additionally to that we provide live data for every governance action. If you stake unstake vote withdraw etc we collect all data live and you are able to see that in your governance profile. It’s not an open API with endpoints.
I agree with you In most DAOs, funding for community work or projects is typically handled by DAO members who verify and grant funds, followed by an announcement on the forum. These decisions usually don’t go through a voting process. Similarly, I believe the WG proposal shouldn’t require a vote but should follow the standard approval process, as I think many Wg will be formed as we move forward and making them go through a vote will be repetitive and it will increase the fud like giving free money etc etc
Indeed I am referring to Catalytics. That is, what I presume and happy to be corrected, the more visible and valuable project that’s dev related that you and the other 2 devs have worked on that users use (I agree with you and I am not implying this is part of the proposal).
The reason I am referring to this project in particular it’s because it’s the easiest proxy for me to be able to tell what technical challenges are being tackled and the complexity around this domain. From what I’ve seen it’s not that you are dealing with a complex domain or technical some challenge, it’s just that there is a lack of interested or development work being done and you’re pushing that forward.
The part where we disagree is how much all this translates to dollars.
This kind of talk might get a non-technical person or a more junior develop out of the conversation but for anyone who has built and maintained any resemblance of a large application it’s not something to be fazed at.
I personally have worked on projects with 10s of thousands concurrent users and on services with millions of requests per day. I can tell you even for that scale you don’t need anything too fancy as long as it’s structured right but it can complicate design a bit. My point again is that even for this scale $5k a month would cover a developer in Europe which is where you are based from the previous posts.
You cited average senior developer salary as part of the justification, but are you really comparing apples to apples? $5k in U.S is very different than $5k in London, which is also very different than $5k in Poland (just pulling 3 distinct tech hubs).
Obviously depends on the actual contents of the application, but just setting the infra and pipeline for dummy examples of the applications you said above, how much do you estimate it will take a tech lead with 7-10 years experience? If they never touched infra because their role didn’t require them I still wouldn’t give an estimate larger than 1-2 days for a competent senior/lead and again that’s being generous. If I was footing the bill I would expect more.
It’s not that you have some weird k8s setup or some complication distributing your docker image and you have to meet some crazy traffic/availability requirements so you don’t have to do anything tricky, just boiler plate. Tangential example but I wanted to deploy a simple React app the other day for free and that took just about 15 minutes and I don’t do React at all (Cloudflare pages is great).
If that’s the case, can you point out where is the costly work comes in? Documentation and tech support doesn’t require that deep technical understanding for 1st level support questions.
Where you would drive the most value is the SDK development (in terms of development and more closely what I would call the expensive part of the budget) but without having the interfaces defined no one can really judge how complex or expensive this might be. Are you building the new boto3? 100% not. Is it just a wrapper for some simple CRUD requests? Does that really cost $5k pp for 3 months or is some other part of the work that is more costly?
I am cool to take a look and as you might guess I haven’t seen that chat. I am taking an educated, potentially very wrong, guess that the questions are not extremely technical (relative to a dev’s knowledge, to a regular non-dev user of course anything would classify as highly technical).
I’d love to see/read any article or blog if you have one on a deep challenging problem you had to tackle on the dev support. I’d agree with you that devs are not necessarily paid for the output they provide:
but I really highly doubt the value of the request being asked is coming from here. I ask you again, if this were your own money what part of the $5k would this be valued at? I also remind you that this is for 3 distinct people not 1 single person.
Yep I’d likely agree, but you are asking for 2 tech leads to be paid. That sounds like asking Guido to come code hello world (but again I’ll eat all I said in case you are indeed facing highly technical problems in dev support and not the type of problem like I forgot to set an OS env please help).
No, personally have not. I do understand how Swaps (derivatives traded OTC) work in the Financial markets work so I presume it’s same or slight less complex to understand. My background would come more in centralized environments and other blockchains so I assume it wouldn’t be too far off.
I am sure for $1k a month you can find some very willing contributors.
Of course. Let me throw another one back you, what’s the likelihood that the documentation will go stale after the trial period if no one is maintaining it?
I don’t doubt that. Does that entitle you to $15k? I personally don’t think so but I am quite sure the DAO disagrees with me which is fine by me. I just want to make my point and understand if you genuinely believe you are underpaid for this work or not.
Sorry I often put project = proposal but I should be more specific.
Well we just happen to disagree or we wouldn’t be having this chat right? Do you believe you can’t find a team to do that with $10k for example? Again, I really need to emphasize this point, I want people to be compensated fairly but it’s disingenuous for me to think 2 tech leads + a dev requesting $5k for a full time job where it probably wouldn’t come close to it if you are hiring on an average market.
Have you had to look for a job recently? In Europe especially, since that’s I think all 3 are based, the market is quite rough and $5k would classify as an outstanding salary.
Perhaps! From what I have seen I don’t think so though.
So tell me what’s the challenge there? Is it sourcing the data? Cleaning the data? Processing the data? Using a model to correlate transactions between wallets to find same users across the population? Again for a technical person this doesn’t sound like a big challenge whereas for a regular user yes it does sound impressive.
What is meant by live? Would users really care if you are 1-5 minute behind? Can’t you just request wallet data when a wallet is searched? It’s not like you have to deliver live reconciliation to a regulator so I would once again say this sounds impressive but not technically too challenging (and you might see the theme of things I point out as not being challenging and maybe you disagree).
From my perspective, having been to many hackathons in my younger days, you can whip out some simple dashboards and website in a single weekend. 1-2 weeks to refine and add more features and you’d have the whole product you have now. Suppose Catalytics was the only project you work on, and I emphasize that I am aware this is no part of the proposal, do you think you’d have 3 months of work for a team worth $15k?
I think inherently we disagree on the value/complexity of many parts of the proposal. Which is fine, I just want to put my thoughts out there as someone who has experience in this area so it means I can actually give reasonable contributions.
I with you and the proposal the best, no hard feelings. I just want the DAO to actually understand what decisions they are making and how they are committing their budget. If this was a company and I was a shareholder all I am saying is that I’d not be happy (hence why withdrawing my stake and going back to just being a user and stop lurking).
You are abviously seeking for attention or you think you have some skills that you obviously dont have. What is your history? Have you been micro managing several developers and you are the one who asks every second day why the cluster doenst autoscale and the work is not automated?
That sounds like asking Guido to come code hello world
If these things are so easy to tackle for you and look like a hello world why are you not coming to grab some easy money?
No, personally have not. I do understand how Swaps (derivatives traded OTC) work in the Financial markets work so I presume it’s same or slight less complex to understand. My background would come more in centralized environments and other blockchains so I assume it wouldn’t be too far off.
What are you talking about? We are not supporting financial users who want to make complex trades, we are supporting and maintaining folks who build the tehnical part of it.
I am sure for $1k a month you can find some very willing contributors.
Find them and bring them to me, you are completely out of context
What is meant by live? Would users really care if you are 1-5 minute behind? Can’t you just request wallet data when a wallet is searched?
No you cant, this is not how the blockchain works, you can not just type in a public address and get in everything you can possibly imagine. Have you ever done a single hands on thing in your life in this context?
Of course. Let me throw another one back you, what’s the likelihood that the documentation will go stale after the trial period if no one is maintaining it?
One more proof that you dont understand what we are talking about, have you seen what the Jupiter team is releasing? have you seen how often APIs and features change? Have you seen the recent developer documentation and what is available over there?
Well we just happen to disagree or we wouldn’t be having this chat right? Do you believe you can’t find a team to do that with $10k for example?
No i dont believe you are going to find a small team that is going to tackle this problems:
Supporting non stop in the developer support
Maintaining documentation of the APIs together with the team
Maintaining open source repos like the Jupiter Terminal, Unified wallet, Referal Dashboard
Keep developing and maintaining catalytics and jupiverse kit
Keeping up to date with everything that happens in the jupiverse because as the face of devrel we have to be up to date with everything that is happening from the CT and Technical side
Creating content around this technical tasks we have (X/Youtube)
Finding talent in CT, guide them and promote their work
And for one more time, if there are devs around who want and think that they can contribute, feel free to reach out and start contributing.
And i am not going to spent more time answering your requests, not because i am not comfortable with it but because you are out of context with almost every point you make.
oh and lastly i would like to touch on what you say here:
Have you had to look for a job recently? In Europe especially, since that’s I think all 3 are based, the market is quite rough and $5k would classify as an outstanding salary.
I have worked in germany and switzerland in the past 8 years, in the financial, insurance and sports sector as a full stack web2 dev.
5k USDC = 55k Euro Gross a year is nothing
At the moment at the company i work we have open positions for frontend, backend, cloud engineers and architects. Salaries vary between 80-120k and this positions are open for over a year.
I dont know your background but if you believe that chat gpt will replace engineers you are delusional, i am interviewing mid / senior engineers who are not able to tell me the difference between a method and a function, people who are not able to work autonomous and solve a simple problem.
Does it matter? You should be discussing points not credentials. When you open with asking about the user it shows a bit where your mentality is at.
The difference between you and me in this case is that I don’t stand to gain anything from this but you do so I can see why you’re on the defensive.
You still never answered my simple question above, if you were the one paying this money would you have allocated as such?
If you must know I am a quant dev in my day to day and used to a tech lead. I only technically manage and mentor people, I don’t need to micromanage or manage other people’s projects only my own.
Again you come attack me personally but I am only focusing on the product and deliverables. As an aside, if you have actuallly worked in infra you’d understand, in the k8s context which I guess is why you refer to autoscaling, that’s a tiny config change…
For one I don’t have time to actively contribute. Second I’d feel guilty charging someone that much. Third I am on the forum because I am interested in the people dynamics around the DAO not as much the technicals. Just happen to be able to contribute on the technicals as that’s my domain. Fourth it’s not worth my full time (I currently get paid more than the monthly budget so I wouldn’t be able to satisfy that amount to the DAO).
The point on understanding complexities was a bit lost on this one.
For the most basic features you’ve mentioned in fact that tends how to work no? Grab the data you care about, connect the public wallets that you care about, output the details in a nice format. Happy to be enlightened on how that’s not the case.
How is that proof? If you think documentation doesnt go stale I’d question any large project you’ve worked on for an extended period of time. Even more so if you are only committing 3 months.
Again I don’t want to be personal but your argument as to why I am “wrong” is just questions thrown back at me. You’re the one getting paid so shouldn’t the justification come from you?
All you keep saying is read the proposal but I read it and don’t agree with the cost so your argument is for me to go read it and agree and if I don’t I just don’t have enough context?
Comes back to my original point. I joined the DAO cause I was interested in the dynamics of the people. This just validates to me how once money is involved greed just runs a bit rampant.
So you are going to quit or work both at the same time?
I interview and make hiring decisions for roles that pay x2-x3 that so I am relatively familiar with dev incompetency…
This role is very different though. You’re more like a full remote contractor which doesnt come with the same constraints.
Again why go personal. Anywhere in my reply I mentioned this? I don’t think so…
I probably will stop here as well as I don’t think you’re happy to discuss this in good faith.
I leave the general questions that everyone should be asking:
What tangible value are you delivering with the budget you proposed
Is your sole focus on this or are you working other full time roles
Would you have allocated the same budget if you were the one on the hook for the money
Yes i would pay this money out my pocket if this would be my project because there insane value for the community projects and community developers
What tangible value are you delivering with the budget you proposed
This questions has been answered several times in this thread and in the proposal
Is your sole focus on this or are you working other full time roles
I am working 70% in web2 and full time here, there are no days off and we are always avaialbe every possible time if its saturday, sunday or whatever
Would you have allocated the same budget if you were the one on the hook for the money
Absolutely there ins a big need for support and maintainance of what we do and i am not just randomly saying that, you can see how frequent peolpe get technical support and what the average reply times are, you can see how many changed are been made in the docs, you can see the GitHub repo, you can see the traffic and usage of our community projects.
For the most basic features you’ve mentioned in fact that tends how to work no? Grab the data you care about, connect the public wallets that you care about, output the details in a nice format. Happy to be enlightened on how that’s not the case.
Basic features? have you taken a look into the governance program of Jupiter?
It doesnt work this way, you cannot ask the blockchain how many staked JUP does person X have. You cannot calculate ranks and statistics without having the complete history.There are 8M signatures in the blockchain since inception (only in the governance scope)
TLDR; yes absolutely. Since this problems exist i would be glad if we find people in the community who are going to do the same quality work and bring the same results for less.
What you also underestimate in my opinion is the fact that this work is been done in public, there is nothing happening behind closed doors. We change our requirements all the time based on what people ask and want and we have to be extremely flexibel with what the team delivers.
Working in public and having to face every single person with individual problems and asks is an extremely tough task too.
Nothing wrong against having multiple roles/jobs/hustles but I think $5k is a full time commitment and probably what most people expect. Should be something that is a key point in the proposal but I failed to see it.
Is that supposed to be a challenge? I just came back from work and took 10 minutes just to see what can be done in terms of fetching data and it was pretty straightforward. I even built a tiny site just to show you can deploy and create a simple interface in 10-20 minutes:
It’s a s**t app but my point is that with data that I scraped from some recent transactions (mind you as you might’ve noticed above I never touched Solana in any technical way) and little to no knowledge in React (trying to pick it up) you can whip out an MVP pretty darn fast.
Looking at the API I used to scrape it supports pagination so really you have a one time job to backfill all 8M data points (which again is nothing in modern days really) and then you can keep polling or listen for data depending on what’s supported. So if I can do this in 10 minutes, am I really underestimating the whole of the platform?
Again there are multiple of these apps but if you extrapolate a bit here and there I don’t see how it would take as long as you might be representing.
You just keep on making assumptions on me. I’ve worked on open source projects that companies depend and thousands of users depend on so yes I have some inkling to that.
Anyway the vote seems to pass so you’ll get to prove your worth so nothing else to see here. My overall arching point is that people are not that good at budgeting and of course from the WGs ends you’d always push for more budget when it’s possible.
You can critize any part of my domain knowledge but in terms of technicals and what the WG is bringing to the table I personally don’t see the same value as you do and I’d be willing to bet people with similar levels of experience as me would objectively not see it either. I don’t think I’ll be visiting much but I’ll come back to see the end report of the WG to see how it turned out.
What value exactly are you adding to the thread? I think the discussion above is more than sensible unlike your reply. It’s easy to just wave your hand and call points invalid (at least like the person above point out what’s wrong like me thinking it wasn’t open source).
Then again some people don’t want to engage in thinking but then what’s the point of this whole forum.
Spiteful for what? You just want to make no point at all and add 0 value but you do you.
In their shoes I’d also be defending my position but not quite like that. It’s not like they are attacking my core person or anything so doesn’t bother me. I’m just more bothered how professionals should have standards and be out here helping people and justifying their value but from anything I’ve seen this is all how a consultant would portray themselves to non-technical people.
How many people know how to deploy an application? I can throw the same words as mentioned above and more. A couple backends, a few front ends, some APIs, some proxies, some firewalls, authentication, authorization some more buzzwords left and right and make anyone non-technical think this is impressive and justify the cost.
Could be my standards for the DAO were too high but that’s on me. The majority of the community seems to be for personal gain hidden in disguise of growing the pie. In Meow shoes I’d be sad which probably is part of their feelings in the other post.
Anyway, this conversation is not as relevant to this thread anymore. I don’t want to spend more time debating technicals when all the answer is read the proposal or you underestimate x, y, z. I get paid a healthy amount to estimate for a living so I’ll just keep to that and let JUP run its course. Again no hard feelings, best of luck
Well Konstantinos spent enough time on reading and debunking your “buzzwords peppered” wall-of-text of invalid points IMO. But this is just my opinion.
I actually answered to the OP. Here again, just for you:
If this is not adding value to the original post in your view, that’s OK.
My comment in your direction wasn’t adding any value and was a spiteful joke which I added later (via edit), don’t take it too seriously, it wasn’t meant too serious or personal!
I am not sure how technical you are but this is the point I am making.
They made exactly 1 good point which is the fact I wasn’t aware that was open source. Outside of that point (which is due to not being familiar with the work done, not the proposal). Whether it was technical or work done/planned to do, there wasn’t anything they refuted when I was asking about technicals: all that was done is telling me I underestimate the work and to read the proposal.
To anyone reading the thread you might not follow the technicalities behind the discussion and just see me trying to undervalue the work but in reality what I was trying to understand is if they are actually worth their salt or not.
From the chat above I didn’t get any depth in the conversation even where I tried to add any, if it was an interview I wouldn’t have passed them as a candidate for the job. Luckily for them this is not how things operate here which is fine. As I put it above I stand nothing to gain from this but it was under my impression that’s how communities and the DAO is meant to operate: question each other and end up in informed reasonable outcomes.
Much like the other attacks above I personally don’t care but I would much prefer when someone calls points invalid/debunked that they actually point them out instead of wave the magic wand and say it’s wrong. That way you actually generate value instead of appearing to be part of the hivemind but it seems no one is too concerned with that these days
To make another final point since there was another reply. If some of the points above was in the original proposal, and they also presented themselves like they did in this thread, I don’t think the vote would’ve gone the same way.
Most users don’t really know/understand the behind the scenes of a product. Some are tricky to do and actual involved deep knowledge to do. Reading some docs and working around them is generally a cake walk for a senior+ engineer and not something warranting a massive budget. Again the point will be made that’s not what the proposal is about but the large amount of money is for value delivered in the end and should equate to to the complexity behind it.
Then you might argue you are paying for their expertise which I agree but it comes back to my original point. Why pay 2 leads for the job you can get a senior and a couple juniors to do.
Do you know how many engineers were in WhatsApp when they scaled to 1 BILLION users? 50 engineers of mix experience.
As an insider in the industry I just don’t like when people misrepresent their work. In the real world to get this position you would go through interview processes and people can call your BS. In the DAO you can just get the vote of a more uninformed public and call it a day.
Similarly you don’t see me question the design proposal because I have no knowledge on that field so it would be misinformed from me to call their budget high or outrageous (unlike in this case).
My opinion is that you are underestimating the work we do, its ok and healthy to not have the same opinion. You are still arguing that the work of catalytics is work that can be done in 1-2 weeks. There is no point of discussing this with you. We are working on this project since August 2024. An other aspect you miss is that there are never requirements defined. Its a complete feedback loop with the community, you build something, ct sees it, judges it then you rebuild and on and on and on. No1 ever came and gave us a list of requirements to build.
Catalytics also has other features (not only governance) that are ofc smaller.
In our dicussion we never touched on Jupiverse Kit, have you looked at that? This is something Dann from our team has build. You are solely focusing on very untrue facts and you are not willing to see the big picture. For every single point in our discussion you are arguing thats its not enough, did you take the time to count all this tasks together? Its not only catalytics, its not only dev support its not only docs, its not only code examples, its not only jupiverse kit, its not only aligning and communicating with the technical community, its not only about syncing with the team and the DAO, its not only about finding talent in ct and promoting community work, its not only about being able to work autonomously in a space that evolves every week.
Without knowing you i have a feeling that you might have technical knowledge but being DevRel isnt about reading requirements and building something straight forward. Its a long process.
You need people that come from the community, that know the community and understand the space.
DevRel people are not machines, we are humans trying to solve existing problems in a space with a lot of uncertainty and many dynamics. Its agility on the highest level, there is no manager i can report my problems and then i keep coding and my work is done.
We find the problems
We create requirements
We solve the problems
We communicate with CT
We communicate with the Jupiter team and the DAO
We adjust to every possible change
If you are not able to see this in our proposal then either i didnt make this clear or you are not able to see it
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