Thank you for sharing this comprehensive overview of Dabba’s journey and vision. It’s incredibly exciting to see how you’re leveraging DePIN to democratize internet access in emerging markets, particularly in India. The scale of your ambition, from the deployment of 1500+ hotspots to the integration with Solana, is truly inspiring.
Your approach to involving Local Cable Operators (LCOs) as micro ISPs is innovative and seems like a sustainable way to bridge the digital divide. The planned expansion to other emerging markets like Vietnam, Nigeria, and beyond, demonstrates your commitment to global connectivity.
I do have a few questions and suggestions that might help refine your strategy:
Sustainability and Scalability: How does Dabba plan to ensure the sustainability of this model in areas where LCOs might not have a strong presence? Are there contingency plans in place for regions that lack existing infrastructure?
User Education: Given that many of the target users might be new to Web3 and blockchain technologies, what steps are you taking to educate them on the benefits and uses of the $DBT token?
Tokenomics Clarification: The tokenomics seem well-thought out, but I’d love to dive deeper into how you plan to manage the buyback and burn mechanism in the long term. Is there a forecast on how this will impact the token’s value as the network grows?
Expansion to Other Markets: Can you share more details on the timeline and specific strategies for expanding to other emerging markets? It would be great to understand how you plan to tailor your approach to different regions’ unique challenges.
Overall, I’m very impressed with the progress and vision of Dabba. The potential to connect millions of people who are currently underserved by traditional telecom companies is monumental. I look forward to seeing how this project evolves and would love to stay updated on any future developments.
Sustainability & Scale are built into the model as LCOs are large in number and available in the remotest regions of the country as often times they are the only service providers in that region.
User ed: We’ve seen great enthusiasm and uptake from engineers in the more traditional FAANG companies because they understand the tech and the need for connectivity. We also see that as the network grows in size, the mainstream audience build awareness and starts to get interested because they connect with the core purpose of the project.
Burn: We’ll detail this more very soon with multiple methods of burning being introduced. It’s also worth noting that the burn mechanism will have greater value and focus in a year or two because right now the focus should be entirely on growth of the network and ecosystem. If there’s a large network, it follows that there will be large burn as well.
Expansion: We’ll have more to say about this in 2025 as the focus for this year is nailing execution of the basics in India because its the strongest and most competitive market. Once we nail India, we’ll expand very quickly to other markets.
Thanks for the insights! I completely agree that sustainability and scale are crucial, especially with the unique positioning of LCOs in remote regions. It’s great to see the enthusiasm from engineers in traditional tech sectors like FAANG, as they recognize the importance of connectivity.
Regarding the burn mechanism, it makes sense to prioritize network growth initially. A robust network will naturally lead to more impactful burns down the line. I’m looking forward to the details on the new burning methods.
As for expansion, the focus on India as a proving ground is strategic. Once the basics are perfected in such a competitive market, scaling to other regions should be seamless. Excited to see what 2025 brings for the project!
Glad to answer, @velvetdoctor. Before I get to the numbers, I would like to highlight our growth mindset atm. The focus is on growing the network horizontally. Larger the network foot print, more data consumption which directly impacts the token utility giving a higher opportunity for token burn. This is our absolute focus with respect to network rollout & operations.
One also need to understand that each hotspot has dual SSID. One private network and the second SSID is the public SSID which forms the larger mesh network giving end users to roam on the network. This SSID will also see carrier offload enablement in the near future. The private SSID brings in a fixed revenue per month giving a predicable token burn. On the other hand, public SSID is pay-per-use network which brings in a more dynamic revenue per month. Over all, each GB consumed on the network contributes a token burn of 0.012 USD per Gb.
Answers to your questions below. Let me know if I can be of more assistance.
I see that there are 1631 hotspots deployed. Does this mean there are 1631 paying customers or is it more?
In multi-dwelling deployment setup, we see an average of 3 paying subs to a hotspot. 95% of current 1631 hotspots are deployed here. Which gives a roughly 4000 paying subscribers on the network. Apart from these, we have retail users who pay us on pay-per-use basis on the public SSID> On an average 9 devices connect to a hotspot per day.
Is it typically that one hotspot = 1 paying customer or can 1 hotspot serve multiple paying customers?
As explained above, multiple paying customers to a hotspot.
How many total paying customers do you have? And on average how many dollars they pay per month?
The average revenue per hotspot stands at 5.1 USD which is expected to grow by 10% QoQ. We have more than 4000 paying subscribers on this network.
What percentage of that monthly pay goes towards buying DBT and burning them? What do you do with the rest of the revenue?
100% of the bandwidth revenue will be burnt from day 1 of TGE.
How much revenue you guys are earning per month from these monthly subscriptions?
5.1 x 1631 = 8300 USD
Thanks @shubhs for your detailed answers. Totally appreciate it!
Having 8300 USD monthly revenue even before TGE is fantastic! I don’t see even a single DePIN project that did this before their token went live. I think even for the most coveted project in DePIN space, Helium, it took close to 2-3 years to generate subscription revenue. I am glad Dabba is able to do this from day one. Awesome
A few more questions:
You talked about carrier offloading. Why would a carrier send their customers to your network? What do they benefit out of it? Aren’t they losing their customers this way?
When you say retail users who pay pay-per-use basis, why would they do it? Why would they connect to Dabba network wifi when they can already get data from their mobile provider? Is it because of the price difference?
How does a retail user pay you? Will Dabba network automatically detect and give the user a pop up saying that they have dabba network wifi available and then that user connects to the network and pays through credit card? Isn’t it too much of a friction for the user to do that every time he wants to connect to the network? Or is it some other process?
Let’s say all the 10,000 hotspots in the season 2 got sold tomorrow. How many of them can you deploy in one month? How many months it would take to finish deploying all those 10k hotspots?
It looks like there is only one LCO partner outside of Dabba on your network explorer. Even if that LCO deploys 1000 hotspots and Dabba team deploys another 1000, how are you going to deploy the rest of 8k hotspots?
Do you have any LCOs who have already been vetted but waiting to onboard after TGE? If yes, how many of them are in the waiting list? And how many connections each of them can deploy and how fast?
Looks like at least 1500 hotspots have been already sold in season 2. So, what is stopping you from deploying them as soon as they are being sold? Is it the TGE that is the reason for delay or any other specific reasons?
From the date of TGE, will the token distribution happen starting with 500 hotspots (as was given in previous projections) or will it start with 1600 hotspots? I am assuming you need at least15-20 days time to onboard like 100 hotspots a day (or something of that sort). Is that right?
You talked about carrier offloading. Why would a carrier send their customers to your network? What do they benefit out of it? Aren’t they losing their customers this way?
For carriers, capex expenditure is a function of potential subscription revenue and services upsell. The high cost of capex and limited revenue potential does not justify infra development in the tier2/3/4 markets for these telcos. Our low cost, distributed approach presents a viable option for them to partner. Of course we should have a sizable network footprint before our trials convert to long term partnerships.
When you say retail users who pay pay-per-use basis, why would they do it? Why would they connect to Dabba network wifi when they can already get data from their mobile provider? Is it because of the price difference?
A typical 4g/5g plan gives 1-2gb per day to the average mobile subscriber. These users need more cheaper, reliable(indoor) and faster internet access. For those reasons, we see pay-per-use subs on our network. Cost of 1Gb of data on Jio is INR 19 (USD 0.23) - https://www.jio.com/selfcare/plans/mobility/prepaid-plans-list/?category=Popular%20Plans&categoryId=UG9wdWxhciBQbGFucw== vs INR 1 (USD 0.012) on Dabba Network.
How does a retail user pay you? Will Dabba network automatically detect and give the user a pop up saying that they have dabba network wifi available and then that user connects to the network and pays through credit card? Isn’t it too much of a friction for the user to do that every time he wants to connect to the network? Or is it some other process?
Recall this tweet by Solana, x.com couple of days ago? Same UPI infra we use for payment collection from retail users. It is an one click transaction that also has auto-mandate functionality built-in.
Once the user is in Dabba coverage area, device auto connects and no re-KYC is needed. It is a smooth handover while the user is roaming on our network.
Let’s say all the 10,000 hotspots in the season 2 got sold tomorrow. How many of them can you deploy in one month? How many months it would take to finish deploying all those 10k hotspots?
At the moment, we have 7 LCOs on waitlist. Amongst when we have more than 10K subscribers. So to answer your question, we can onboard all 10k units in less than a month.
It looks like there is only one LCO partner outside of Dabba on your network explorer. Even if that LCO deploys 1000 hotspots and Dabba team deploys another 1000, how are you going to deploy the rest of 8k hotspots?
We have cautiously not onboarded the next set of LCOs. While we have KYC’d and audited there network infra and they are ready to be onboarded, we will bring them online close to TGE. While all the testing is in progress with one LCO (various LCO tools and apps) we don’t wish to create test environment for multiple LCOs to avoid confusion.
Do you have any LCOs who have already been vetted but waiting to onboard after TGE? If yes, how many of them are in the waiting list? And how many connections each of them can deploy and how fast?
Answered above.
Looks like at least 1500 hotspots have been already sold in season 2. So, what is stopping you from deploying them as soon as they are being sold? Is it the TGE that is the reason for delay or any other specific reasons?
We have already deployed > 2000. As the sales ticker goes up, they will start showing up on the testnet for our community.
From the date of TGE, will the token distribution happen starting with 500 hotspots (as was given in previous projections) or will it start with 1600 hotspots? I am assuming you need at least15-20 days time to onboard like 100 hotspots a day (or something of that sort). Is that right?
It will start from the number of hotspots onboarded into the ecosystem. We really wish and are working towards onboarding all 11k on or before TGE.
Launchpads for a token serve as an advertisement mechanism and have not much to do with series A fundings where especially VC’s like Borderless Capital do invest into the company or project itself, not so much the launch or distribution of the token or it’s allocation.
Presales are also done naturally regardless of the amounts in series A for the majority of projects.
At least that is what I would assume in such a case.
This is fantastic information! Thanks @shubhs for all the time and patience in answering these questions. Appreciate it!
Most probably last few questions
When you talk about DBT burn, will Dabba be buying those tokens from DEX and burning those tokens or is there a specific pool (such as tokens assigned to Foundation etc.) from which Dabba team will be taking out the tokens and burning them?
You are saying 100% of revenue from subscriptions is used to burn DBT. Then how do you manage your company expenses on a daily basis. What other revenue streams you have to spend for day to day company expenses? How much revenue you get from those other sources (other than subscriptions)
What is your burn rate (not regarding token but company expenses - salaries, operational cost, etc.) per month (if that is something you can publicly share)? It is ok if it is not public info. I totally get it.
When you have such a good demand and almost everyone is a paying customer then why aren’t the hotspots already sold out by now? What is stopping the whales in DePIN from scooping up all the hotspots?
Do you guys have any plans to offer discounts for people who want to buy 10 or more hotspots? If yes, may I know how much? Or is the discount based on number of hotspots and decided on case to case basis? May be a tier based discount such as 10% for 10-50, 15% for 50-100 etc. might help in attracting whales? Just a thought
A discount for individuals buying a large amount of hotspots is a great idea. I’m sure that would encourage some big players to get buying! Either way $299 a hotspot is exceptional value and very affordable. Especially when you factor in the genesis rewards accumulated before TGE. Can’t wait to find out if you guys get accepted on to the Jupiter launch pad!
When you talk about DBT burn, will Dabba be buying those tokens from DEX and burning those tokens or is there a specific pool (such as tokens assigned to Foundation etc.) from which Dabba team will be taking out the tokens and burning them?
The LCOs need FIAT to run operations. Dabba entity that collects FIAT from end users as the subscription fee, will buy DBT from LCOs and pay them this subscription revenue and burn the token.
You are saying 100% of revenue from subscriptions is used to burn DBT. Then how do you manage your company expenses on a daily basis. What other revenue streams you have to spend for day to day company expenses? How much revenue you get from those other sources (other than subscriptions)
Dabba will also be a LCO. The DBT received will be burnt after accepting FIAT from the subscription revenue. Dabba also provides R&D services to foundation and get paid for providing services. Dabba also raises equity capital for growth.
What is your burn rate (not regarding token but company expenses - salaries, operational cost, etc.) per month (if that is something you can publicly share)? It is ok if it is not public info. I totally get it.
Privileged information. Not for public domain. Happy to talk about one-to-one. My cal – https:/dab.ba/Shubhs
When you have such a good demand and almost everyone is a paying customer then why aren’t the hotspots already sold out by now? What is stopping the whales in DePIN from scooping up all the hotspots?
Please intro us to your whale network.
We certainly need to do a better job with Marketing & Communications. I believe our decoupled DePIN model is something new. DePIN audience is used to self deployment model and for us to bring a revolutionary new way to build DeWi, we need to do a lot more to communicate this. Getting there.
Do you guys have any plans to offer discounts for people who want to buy 10 or more hotspots? If yes, may I know how much? Or is the discount based on number of hotspots and decided on case to case basis? May be a tier based discount such as 10% for 10-50, 15% for 50-100 etc. might help in attracting whales? Just a thought
Bulk discounts are available. We have affiliate program running where one can get upto 6% as referral fee.
Direct discounts of upto 10% are available on purchase of 100 or more units. Please reach out to me on email/telegram for details.
There is not really so much revolutionary about centralized rent deployments at all, many projects did them already for years now. Just the big difference is that projects like Geodnet do not go out of their way to block customers getting a hold of the hardware, and just offer the remote managed/supervised device as an option. Things are a bit more trustworthy if a model is offered but the alternative to get hands on is still available.
The thing is just, words sometimes do too much of heavy lifting and the narratives get to easily twisted just to achieve a goal. Some times it is not needed to hard press mental gymnastics just to try to force a narrative and better just be honest. As in if something is not a DePIN, maybe just work with that instead of finding the most creative ways to still argue it is a DePIN.
It is not a bug - it’s a feature
It does not have a weird catch - it is just revolutionary
It is not centralized - we just need time to decentralize it
Is is not gate kept - we just know what is better for you
It is totally a DePIN, even if there is no way to deploy devices yourself -
By leveraging NFTs for device ownership and smart contracts for network operations and interaction between all stakeholders, we’ve created a truly decentralized platform.
No need to say that it is not decentralized-
That requires, in the begining, a level of centralized coordination because its a new system that needs to be figured out and the most efficient way is to run it with playing a key role. Over time, as the system matures and its clear that incentives are working of course we’re going to decentralize every single part of the process.
It is not that we would not let you own our hardware-
One of the fundamental ideas is bringing to the table is the decoupling of ownership of the device and where the device gets deployed.
It is not that this project is misusing the term DePIN:
I disagree with the narrow definition that DePin requires that hardware be purchased and deployed by the same person.
See the thing is that no one that criticized it ever claimed that “the definition of DePIN is that it requires the same person to purchase and deploy it” so that is sort of a bad faith argument. Equally calling something a DePIN but not allowing willing customers to attain the hardware or set it up, is a narrow blunt approach of making a token rental service and wanting to call it DePIN.
While device ownership is a key component of many DePIN models, it’s not the sole determinant of decentralization. The Dabba network is a decentralized marketplace that aggregates connectivity providers and consumers. Unlike traditional models, we empower a diverse ecosystem including hotspot owners, local cable operators, location owners,and bandwidth providers. By leveraging NFTs for device ownership and smart contracts for network operations and interaction between all stakeholders, we’ve created a truly decentralized platform.
Is exactly the definition of trying to bend reality just so that something fits
Then it is not DePIN. I mean the “De” in DePIN is not whatever one wants to pull it from. If it is not a decentralized network, but a network that is a decentralized marketplace it feels like a wordplay not much more.
So technically X Twitter is by your definition a DePIN too, it is a decentralized marketplace of ideas, while the physical infrastructure comes from the fact that they have a headquarter and have servers, while every user through his router is an endpoint?
Why does it even matter?
Much too often is everything tried to just hit buzzword markers. A memento to the dot-com bubble, or how everything the last two years had to be either Web3 or Blockchain by title, and now it comes down to AI or DePIN.
In the crypto adjacent ecosphere, too often there are buzzword realities made up or argued into existence, while actually there are two “but”'s and three asterixs on the words.
just common unrelated examples:
It is DePIN … but you can not own the physical devices
It is DePIN … but it is an app and no hardware
It is DeFi … but we want you to do KYC via Google Acc
It is decentralized … but facilitated via a centralized entity
It is a DAO … but only ten people can make decisions
It is an Airdrop … but we will not give it to you right away
It is borderless … but we restricted 5 countries
Now with such things, one on the bingo card is not even super easy to avoid, but checking with multiple does leave a sour after taste.
Quite funny that as soon as someone mourned that the hardware is not accessible some “users” jumped in to say how much that is an advantage, yeah actually a premium service. - “not a bug, but a feature”
So someone really said that it is so much easier to have it “set up and maintained by professionals” and when prompted with the interest to actually see and run the hardware the come back is just “aaw nothing exciting about hot-spots, one the same as the other”.
If no one can hold on to devices, it is not a DePIN but an investment scheme. If that investment was so good, then why open it up in the first place, surely the helium founders that got the first devices without gate keeping “as it is in the nature of presales” could have easily filled the production line.
The whole gate keeping narrative about “only we decide where there is demand and pick the best position for the device in your interest” is a bit… hard to believe. Just convenient.
By no means to I want to pick on Dabba or have a targeted agenda, I just prefer to call something a spade if it looks like a spade, smells like a spade and runs in circles screaming “I am a spade”.
In the bigger picture of things, I will probably get more into trouble for writing in apposition, as to some degree I should not argue against things affiliated to Borderless Capital out of own selfinterest and survival comfort, haha. But the thing is, it would never have itched on my fingertips if it were not for misuse of terms, mental gymnastics on doubling down and the twinge of artificial engagement on top- But there again to convenient explanation is right at the hand I guess “it is not artificial engagement, we just have many people in team that need to take turns answering while our users are just enthusiastic”.
I hope at some point it will become more than a managed NFT rental, and hope that while on my list of DePIN it scores a 2.5 / 10 the aspiration and moneyflow will at least carry it to a 7 / 10 before end of year, just sad that I had more higher hopes for it initially, as the intro was majestic.
I am all for being convinced, will be at Token2049 and Solana Breakpoint, just please bring more in arguments than platitudes and twists, I am all for changing my opinion and would prefer to regain trust to cover properties in Calcutta, Shanteniketan and some day Germany with it, just like if definitions are on point.
Hey merlin, i got a couple of hotspots after meeting the team in the last hackerhouse. Infact three of their deployed location; coworking spaces where they have about 100 hotspots live was quite nearby from HH location to just drop by and visit for user experience.
I think IOT devices from Ambient (dropped a comment on your intro) can be easily deployed across India with the managed deployment solution that Dabba brings as well.
I dont get the thesis about why its not a DePIN. I use chrome extensions and apps on my phone to participate in various DePIN projects, also self deployment is one part of the entire roadmap
Hey @Merlin-M-Ostermann , we do appreciate the critiques here but not sure I agree with all your points:
Are we misusing the term DePIN and we should not fall in that category?
Not at all, we are imploring a different deployment model (the managed deployment model) that works better for emerging markets like India, where these services are “a need to have” rather than “nice to have”.
The network decentralizes over time ensuring that services are deployed where they are needed. Managed deployment is a great way to kick off this flywheel and aligns the network in providing services of value to end consumers, which is crucial.
The traditional self deployment model is still a great model but doesn’t ensure that connectivity reaches where it’s needed, the problem in India is that these services are expensive and unattainable in many rural and suburban areas.
It’s not as much we decide where there is demand; rather devices are deployed to a paying end consumer, catering to demand is the great outcome of following this model, so the end consumer who is actually paying for this service is defining deployment, which is fantastic.
As I said in an earlier post, self deployment where you receive hardware is part of the road map. One step at a time.
How is this different from a rental service? Why not decentralize everything?
All the stakeholders responsible for maintaining and deploying the network are participants on our network and get rewarded for their efforts, it’s not the house that wins but the entire ecosystem that props up the network that is rewarded. Again setup of some of these systems centralized at first and decentralized over time to ensure great service quality to end consumers.
Why should we be trusted to follow through?
As with any project everyone should DYOR. But I also think we have a proven track record as a company, I’m sure Borderless, Multicoin or superteam would be happy to vouch that we are a real project with real expectations and objectives.
That being said we are an early stage company, that’s part of why we are on a launchpad, there will be learnings and adaptations as the project grows and anyone should keep that in mind.
This is pretty misleading and insinuates dishonesty, please do point to instances of such, we are here to answer all questions and our calendars are always open for people to reach us directly as well.
Additionally you are welcome to join our discord server - Official Dabba Community you will see that a lot of the people that discuss on this forum are also there, having very similar discussions and opinions, they are real people with real opinions, insinuating otherwise is kinda insulting to them.
Difference in opinions does not equate dishonesty, as representatives that are building projects with real utility and value I think it’s important we foster an atmosphere of collaboration, learning and transparency.
We will be in Singapore and would be more than happy to catch up in person as well!
We can always agree to disagree. When I point out that a term is twisted with creative explanations then to double down on why that twist is totally normal with another creative explanation will finally just let us curl in an endless circle.
I will take any criticism on being strict with terms and a maximalist but at same time will not budge by being pushed into a corner with arguments.
The thing is quite simple that “as per definition” in my book it is not a DePIN. Of course if someones only goal is to want to call it a DePIN that is possible. We saw it live in action here, but I can see how others also wrote equal examples that stick. Like the one where if someone wants to call Twitter a DePIN he could- decentralized marketplace of ideas, the physical structure being servers the services run on and the devices users access it with. The same like for the ATM example with the units being physical and everyone being able to withdraw decentralized. If you are desperate to make an argument work, you can do that always.
Same goes for saying that having community with very similar discussions and opinions, they are real people with real opinions, and insinuating otherwise is kinda insulting to them does also not gaslight me into changing the premise of my opinion or say “ok I am sorry” because then you would be clearly missing my point.
Same while if we are about to count pennies and try to tip the scale on each others words, I also do not it would be pretty misleading to insinuate dishonesty, and I believe I pointed to enough perceived instances of such in my prior post.
Look the reality is my take has neither anything to do with Ambient Network nor would vouching by Borderless, Multicoin or Superteam change my opinion on this. The space is saturated with VC vouching for credibility in mutual financial interest, and me being a hardliner on a stance is just that- a single person with a single strong subjective opinion, not more, not less.
You will probably feel you did your best to challenge my take while I am being obnoxious. And I totally understand that.But maybe you can also see how I would feel left unsatisfied and my main criticism unanswered, while my text was only cherry picked on the low hanging fruits of what makes for a good comeback. We might never agree but that is fine.
Difference in opinions does not equate dishonesty ?
Look call me vindictive, but this is what everything starts with- someone misusing a definition while if challenged on it the final comeback is either “we interpreted it differently” “we have a different opinion” or “it was not done in malice”.
Lastly I did by no means come here or have that strong opinion as a representative of a project, and while I generally agree that it is important that “we foster an atmosphere of collaboration, learning and transparency” that does not make me ignore facts and reality. In my mind collaboration should happen natural on base of vision and premise, learning means also to not force a twisted interpretation on someone but also learning yourself from feedback all the while transparency, well let us not start even with that.
I will be in Singapore and always open to talk when strolling by and while I am always polite and respectful in tone and come across far less harsh than in written language, one can equally expect that my opinion takes are as punctual and blunt as in writing.
